For those who have not listened to Jerry Vines' message, "Calvinism: A Baptist and His Election," you really should hear it for yourself. Then, I would encourage you to read "An Open Letter of Rebuttal" written by Roy Hargrave, pastor of the Riverbend Community Church in Ormond Beach, Florida. In this letter, Mr. Hargraves expresses his concerns about the recent mailing from the Florida Baptist Convention:
It is not Dr. Vine’s right to preach it that I question, nor Woodstock’s right to believe it. My concern relates to the forum that has been provided by Dr. Sullivan and the Florida Baptist Convention for the dissemination of Dr. Vines’ views through funds which come from local churches who vehemently disagree with the misrepresentations presented in the sermon on Calvinism. This, is a great concern and for good reason. To add to the folly, it was sent in a packet with three other sermons by Dr. Vines on Pentecostalism, Liberalism, and Libertarianism, all of which, in my opinion, were to veil a more subtle intention and to lump the “problem” of Calvinism in with Liberalism, ad nauseam. It is, without question, extremely inappropriate, that the Executive director-treasurer of the Florida Baptist Convention would insert himself, “officially,” into a controversy which is extremely divisive within our ranks. If this is the official view of the Florida Baptist Convention, it needs to be communicated forthrightly. If it is not (which is the case), it should not have been sent with funds from our local congregations. Now that the damage is done, I would call on Dr. Sullivan to do the right thing and send a rebuttal sermon from the other side of the issue to the same recipients who received Dr. Vine’s sermon — with the same official endorsement given to the Vines sermon. To be balanced, it would be four sermons on the same subjects, with the exception of replacing Calvinism with Arminianism.
So, just who is this pastor, Roy Hargrave, and the Riverbend Community Church? Are they some cult-group of two dozen people meeting in someone's living room in Ormond Beach? Well, I'll let Mr. Hargrave introduce Riverbend and himself to you:
When I came, the church had been liberal for almost a decade. Though the counts were 500 in Sunday School, I learned that we were lying on our reports. We began to properly count what amounted to more like 350. After 18 years of dead Calvinism and mean-spiritedness, we have seen the tragic result of 1500 members. Instead of the 3500 members with 350 coming we now have 1450 coming on Sundays. On Sunday night only 700 or so return, and on Wednesday night as few as 900 are on campus. We were on four acres; now we are on 115 acres. Our total giving use to be approximately $500,000; now we take in over $4,000,000 annually. We scrutinize our converts and take great care that they show forth fruit meet for repentance. Of the 45-60 we baptize annually, we keep over 80 percent. Our church sends about 100 people a year to the mission field, some for a year or more. We have our own mission board and we train people theologically and practically about the worldwide work of evangelism, starting in Ormond Beach, Florida. Though we have no Tuesday night visitation, we teach our people to witness to their neighbors, friends and family and those they meet randomly. Many of them are extremely faithful to do so. We build churches in various countries, we train many pastors all over the world and pay for the printing of great theological works in their languages. We are in the process of involving ourselves in a new seminary in South Africa. I do not feel comfortable in saying all of that, and I do not believe that any of that validates me as a true man of God. But I am sick of hearing about the dead Calvinistic churches. Those men who are laboring in the small churches in our rural areas and being faithful to the Lord’s call in their lives are to be held in high esteem. Instead, our convention possesses such arrogance at times that you would think there are only ten pastors in the convention. If you don’t build a great church, which Christ never called us to do, especially if you embrace the great doctrines of Boyce, Dagg, Broadus and many others, including Peter, Paul and Jesus, you are castigated as a trouble maker and sent (to the church I might add) a rebuttal from the very denomination that is supposed to be your supporter. May God have mercy upon us!I was called to preach in a Southern Baptist Church. I have received various degrees from SBC institutions. I have been a pastor in SBC churches for 33 years. I have attended 23 of the last 24 conventions. I have voted for every conservative, fought for them and informed my people of the necessity of the conservative resurgence. Dr. Vines, the pulpit committee where I now serve called you in 1989 about me. You, along with Dr. Rogers, endorsed my ministry. I have not changed much, but the SBC has. If you are going to speak of us, please get the facts straight. I am certain that we are all guilty of such a thing, but surely we do not do it intentionally. Though I have loved the convention, I must add that the SBC doesn’t possess one thing that is absolutely vital to me. Also, there is nothing that is vital to me that the SBC can take away from me. If the Florida Baptist Convention wants to engender hostility in our churches by providing the falsehoods to our churches, so be it. I am not pleading for myself. I could stand up Sunday and tell Riverbend that we are pulling out of the convention and the people would say, “Amen! Now preach!” But many of these young preachers are preaching their hearts out, believing in their convictions about God, man and salvation. Their cohorts, paid for by the young preachers’ churches, are passing out mis-characterizations and misrepresentations which undermine the preacher’s authority! Are you guys in Jacksonville here to help us or to rule over us? Tell us your motives so we can make an informed decision about our future. All of us will stand before God and give an account.
Can I get an "Amen!" from anyone?
Amen and amen. We need more pastors like Roy Hargrave, more churches like Riverbend, and much less from people like Dr Sullivan who seem to be trying to create a “second front” in the SBCs long war.
Bill,
I would love to hear more from you on this subject. I know you have some insights that would be enlightening!
Thanks in advance
Jim Shaver
Bill,
Unless the “State Board of Missions†(which is supposed to be the governing body of the Florida Baptist Convention) injects itself into this issue and calls John Sullivan and Cecil Seagle to account for their actions… nothing at all will be done about this offence… However, I doubt this will ever happen.
In reality the Florida Baptist Convention is no longer a Baptist Convention at all… The Convention leadership NOT the “State Board of Missions†are the finial authority in the State of Florida… Therefore there is no recourse for any individual Baptist, Baptist Pastor, Baptist Church, or Local Baptist Association that have been wronged by any State Convention Employee. The “State Board of Missions†should be disbanded… it is just a pawn in hand of the Executive Director… and it is high time the Baptist Churches of the State of Florida wake up to this truth.
One can whimper to John Sullivan (The Executive Director of the Florida Baptist Convention) that they have been offended… But whatever John Sullivan rules/decrees is the end of it… If this is Baptist polity in action then I don’t know what Baptist polity is.
I predict that John Sullivan will just ride out this little storm, (I would be surprised if the “State Board of Missions†ever even considers this matter). John Sullivan will write something to print in the State paper basically stating that “If anyone has taken my actions as an attack on Calvinism they have misunderstood my intention, and for that misunderstanding I apologize”… all will be forgiven and the attacks on Calvinist will subside for a little while… perhaps six months, but alas they will soon start again.
Grace to all,
Bil,
After reading the response by Dr. Hargrave I feel like I have stood on the mountaintop and have seen the promised land. What a scholarly, controlled yet forthright address. Thank you so much for posting this.
John
AMEN!
Three Cheers for Roy Hargrave: I come from the same county in Arkansas where he was born. In fact, I was born just down the road from where his family lived but I was some yrs. before. It is the same county Dr. Jerry Milliken (sp.?) of Mid America Sem. is from. The man who was the pastor of my grandparents at the Nimmons Baptist Church, Rev. George Washington Graves, preached Sovereign Grace. When I preached in Nimmons church in the 60s, he as pastor emeritus took me to Memphis to see Bellevue. He told me that percentage wise he had baptized just as many as Dr. Lee who (by the way) was also a believer in Sovereign Grace, and whose associate pastor, Dr. Ernest R. Campbell would be my ordaining pastor and who would pastor FBC of Hialeah in Fla. and found the American Race Track Chaplaincy (he would say from the pulpit that he was supralapsarian, a hyper-calvinist). Having pastored in the Sandy Creek Assn. and knowing much of its history, I can say that no one needs to be ashamed or intimidated by any one about the doctrines of grace. My predecessors and ancestors as well believed and preached Sovereign Grace. I say it now that total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, perseverance of the saints, reprobation, and predestination are all doctrines of the most intense evangelism; they are the most intensely invitational principles, and were so used by our Blessed Lord in Mt.15:21-28 & Lk.4:18-32.
When Jesus said to his disciples, “I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel,” the woman of Canaan came and worshipped him. When He said to her, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and cast it to the dogs,” she agreed and argued, “Truth, Lord, yet the dogs eat of the crumbs that fall from their masters’table.” Then Jesus gave her carte blanche along with His highest recognition, “Great is your faith, be it unto you as you please.” WOW! So get up, be winsome, charming, attractive, magnetic like Stearns, Gano, Leland, the Craigs, Middletons, Taylors, Manleys, Furmans, Harts, etc.
A little more information. Some of us have ancestors who were Baptist preachers and believed in Sovereign Grace and preached it. One of mine was a Middleton mentioned in H. Holcombe’s History of Alabama Baptists, He was there about the time that Dr. Basil Manley, Sr., became the first president of the U. of Alabama. Both of them stood for sovereign grace. Dr. Sullivan needs to reconsider what he has done. Another relative was the Craig who met with the colonial legislators to make an agreement that in exchange for the freedom to practice their faith, the Baptist ministers of Va. would encourage the young men in their communities to enlist in the patriot’s cause. Practically all of those men were sovereign grace believers and preachers. George Washington Grey was my pastor when I was a small boy living in Arkansas. He told me plainly that he preached the doctrines of grace. He was then in his 80s, and percentage wise he baptized as many as Dr. Lee at Bellevue (who was also a believer in the five points). Shall the people who dislike the doctrines of grace exclude such as these from Baptist life. When they do, there will be an awful hole and the fire will be gone.